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Thread: Election 2017

  1. #3531
    JohnnyMac's Avatar Regular Contributor Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbert View Post
    "If you own a bach, you're a rich prick and should pay for everyone else"?
    Not sure I grasp your point.

    A capital gains tax is merely a logical adjunct to the PAYE, company and consumption taxes we already have. There is nothing radical about it, as I have stated, in not having one NZ is unusual.

  2. #3532
    chuckie2's Avatar AF Jedi Pro Membership
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    My view on this is Labour is a pack of bullshitters . Petrol prices up , house prices up by 3.9% , other increases will follow .
    Once National get rid of that fuckwit Bridges, who bores the shit out of me every time he opens his mouth , then they will succeed in the next election .
    Funny how 47% of NZ voters wanted National under English, however Labour and NZ first get in . MMP is pathetic regardless of what people think
    Last edited by chuckie2; 13-10-2018 at 10:58 AM.

  3. #3533
    AF Jedi Non/Former NZG Escort or Agency
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMac View Post
    Not sure I grasp your point.

    A capital gains tax is merely a logical adjunct to the PAYE, company and consumption taxes we already have. There is nothing radical about it, as I have stated, in not having one NZ is unusual.
    There's nothing logical , purely greed and envy .

    I make widgets . It costs me 60 cents to make each widget , and I sell them to the retailers for 80 cents . I pay tax on the profit . Easy to understand . The shop retails them for $1 , and they pay tax on their profit . Again , easy to understand .

    If I rent my factory , or the retailer rents their shop , that effectively comes off their profit . Again , easy to understand -- a cost of doing business .

    But heaven help you if you own your factory or shop , and have done for 30 years ! Sell that building to buy a retirement house , and with CGT , you pay tax on the difference between what you paid 30 years ago , and what you sell it for now . Ignore totally that the retirement house you want to buy is 10 times the price it would have been 30 years ago . Forget that you have taken the risk , mortgaged your family home , to buy this building . Forget that the fact you owned the building may have been the only reason your bank supported you when times were tough .

    No , the Government , on behalf of the no hopers , the unproductive , want to take part of that . Pure greed and envy . You worked very hard , you put your balls on the line , you have to give it to the hopeless .

    I'm afraid I can't see any logic there .

  4. #3534
    GalleySlave5's Avatar AF Millennium Member Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMac View Post
    Not sure I grasp your point.

    A capital gains tax is merely a logical adjunct to the PAYE, company and consumption taxes we already have. There is nothing radical about it, as I have stated, in not having one NZ is unusual.
    There is nothing logical about a capital gains tax, it is just a tax on inflation.

    Are they talking about realized gains or unrealized gains, any claim for capital losses, any adjustment for inflation. Losses ,inflation and unrealized gains are considered to hard by Govt.

    What about gain over 10 years taxed at what rate compared to a gain over 30 years if only dealing with realized gains.

    Are capital gains going to be taxed in a single year or will it be able to be spread as is forestry income is now.

    How do we deal with transfers on death, is that going to be considered a sale (unrealized gain) or not taxed until ultimately sold.

    A CGT will only create distortions in the market.

    It will probably end up in the to hard basket as it has in the past.

  5. #3535
    JohnnyMac's Avatar Regular Contributor Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckie2 View Post
    My view on this is Labour is a pack of bullshitters . Petrol prices up , house prices up by 3.9% , other increases will follow .
    Once National get rid of that fuckwit Bridges, who bores the shit out of me every time he opens his mouth , then they will succeed in the next election .
    Funny how 47% of NZ voters wanted National under English, however Labour and NZ first get in . MMP is pathetic regardless of what people think
    Well Chuck, a couple of points here. Firstly, the majority of the electorate voted for MMP, and, accordingly, it currently our electoral system. You incorrectly state the National Party's party vote percentage in the last election, the actual percentage was 44.4%. Now, anyone wishing for the National party to remain in government should have allocated their party vote accordingly, however 55.6% of the electorate gave their vote to other parties.

    Fuel price increases largely result from the decline in the NZD relative to the USD and rising crude prices. However, we, nonetheless, have cheaper fuel than all the major European countries, and significantly cheaper than oil producing Norway - how would you go at $3.20 per litre. Have you a push bike?
    Last edited by JohnnyMac; 14-10-2018 at 12:44 PM.

  6. #3536
    AF Jedi Non/Former NZG Escort or Agency
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    Just under 50% of the fuel price is taxes and GST ( and the Auckland Development Tax or whatever it's called skews that even further ) . Combine that with the recent 3cents increase in excise too . So a 10 cent per litre equivalent increase in the crude price 'at the border' relates to 20-25 cents at the pump -- some from the crude price , some from tax and excise , and some from margins .

    Yes , Norway might have a higher fuel price ( and higher per capita incomes and more productive people -- less bludgers there ) but that is done artifically to make alternative energy sources look more attractive -- they do that to follow EU directives . Not saying its a bad thing , but you need to see the whole picture rather than just a snippet , to make a valid argument .

  7. #3537
    JohnnyMac's Avatar Regular Contributor Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GalleySlave5 View Post
    There is nothing logical about a capital gains tax........

    It will probably end up in the to hard basket as it has in the past.
    CGT is perfectly logical but, as you have pointed out, not uncomplicated.

    The issue is one of equity, for example a family earning $2000 per week have their entire income consumed by living costs which, with the exception of rent , attract GST. Whereas a family earning $10,000 per week will have surplus funds to invest in various schemes from which they will both accrue income and, over the course of time, a capital gain. The former attracts tax, the latter does not.

  8. #3538
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    I still don't follow your logic .

    Lets adjust your figures above .

    One family makes $2000 a week , and spends it all on rent , food , car , whatever . Hell , they may buy Lotto and play pokies and bet on the horses and drink and smoke -- all those have higher tax rates . They have paid tax ( presumably PAYE ) on their income , and GST on their spending . Their personal spending is their choice .

    Lets take another family , that spends $1000 of their $2000 on living expenses , and uses the rest to pay the mortgage on their own house and to buy a rental property , which they rent to Family 1 . Their income may be MORE , because they get rent from Family one , as well as their PAYE income . So they have to pay more tax on their income . Yes , they are paying more tax . And if you really want to get into a tax argument , personal tax rates are higher than GST tax rates .

    So Family 2 already pays MORE tax anyway . Yes , they end up with an asset when they 'retire' or similar , after say 30 years . So in your eyes , that is bad ? They should give some of that ( via an extremely inefficient tax department and extremely inefficient Government ) to the extremely inefficient Family 1 ? Hell , maybe they should just rent too ?

    You do realise that investing in doing developments already attracts tax on the profits ( as well as GST ) ? That commercial properties attract tax and GST , on the income and any profit when sold . That major residential housing companies attract tax and GST -- i.e. their primary business is providing housing .

    Yes , buying a residential property and getting ahead MAY make you a gain over the years . In reality though , it may or may not be more than the going interest rate . Yes , some people may get jealous of any gain . Yes , not everyone is able to afford a house , or a rental property .

    BUT someone buying residential properties are likely to be paying more income tax anyway ( compared to if they didn't buy a property ) -- it is simply a tax based on envy and jealousy , NOTHING to directly do with income .

  9. #3539
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    And thinking it through further , I understand that 30 or 40 years ago the Government of the time dropped Death Duties , because that was unfair . Sure , you die , so you aren't overly worried ( actually , it may kill people off earlier due to worry , but I'm talking purely financially ) . But why should you have to pay tax all your life on your EARNINGS , and then , just because you have saved and been careful and invested , you have to give some of that away to someone who didn't .

    We can all reluctantly understand income or even GST tax , and begrudgingly accept that 'cleverer' people will pay more than underproductive people , a lot will be nett 'takers' , some relatively neutral , some pay more than their fair share . It is the nature of the tax beast .

    CGT is very , very , very similar to death duties , except it happens when you are alive . It is essentially legalised theft IMO .

  10. #3540
    Average Guy's Avatar AF Millennium Member Pro Membership
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    Default Chinese ventriloquist buys new dummy

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    Aparently they wore the Key, Collins and Shipley models out
    Last edited by Average Guy; 16-10-2018 at 04:27 PM.

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