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Thread: Election 2017

  1. #3561

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    Newsroom continue to lead the journalism race:

    Follow the money and the influence

    Great photo above Exhibit 3. Goldsmith wearing his Dad's suit and Ross looks like he borrowed his jacket from his little (and smaller) brother.

  2. #3562

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedEric View Post
    ....................The cost per Megawatt hour for wind and solar has dropped to make coal non-competitive............
    The cost has always been below, when you look at it from a KWH perspective. You simply cant dig coal up as cheaply as you can stand a panel in the sun. The problem is storage cost, and that is excluded from a direct KWH comparison. This is how people get conned into believing that green energy solutions are more viable than they actually are.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEric View Post
    .................The Snowy 2.0 scheme is a pumped hydro expansion where wind/solar power will pump water uphill so it can then be stored for use when required...........
    I urge you to just consider the viability of this. Consider the losses involved firstly in pumping, then in (re) generating power from that water. Are alarm bells ringing? This is just an attempt to push absurdity onto those who have no grasp of viability.

    If they wanted to make it slightly sensible, they would be pushing the barrow of solar water heating in Aussie harder. Instead, they are suggesting that solar panels generate power to pump water, which is used to generate power, which in turn is used by consumers to heat their water at an efficiency rating that would be lucky if it was 20%. See how silly it is now?

    We have become so obsessed by this situation that we are prepared to accept such nonsense, which I find quite sad.

  3. #3563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Sailor View Post
    The cost has always been below, when you look at it from a KWH perspective. You simply cant dig coal up as cheaply as you can stand a panel in the sun. The problem is storage cost, and that is excluded from a direct KWH comparison. This is how people get conned into believing that green energy solutions are more viable than they actually are.



    I urge you to just consider the viability of this. Consider the losses involved firstly in pumping, then in (re) generating power from that water. Are alarm bells ringing? This is just an attempt to push absurdity onto those who have no grasp of viability.

    If they wanted to make it slightly sensible, they would be pushing the barrow of solar water heating in Aussie harder. Instead, they are suggesting that solar panels generate power to pump water, which is used to generate power, which in turn is used by consumers to heat their water at an efficiency rating that would be lucky if it was 20%. See how silly it is now?

    We have become so obsessed by this situation that we are prepared to accept such nonsense, which I find quite sad.
    Ever heard of arbitrage?

    Origin Energy keen to double NSW pumped hydro project | afr.com

    The expansion is one of several potential additions of pumped hydro capacity around Australia, where the need for such large electricity storage facilities goes hand in hand with increased penetration of solar and wind generation, which are affected by weather.

    The technology involves a net 30 per cent loss of power, requiring more energy to pump water back up than is generated when it is passed through turbines running downhill. At present, the Shoalhaven project typically uses cheap baseload coal power during the night, at perhaps $30-$40 a megawatt-hour to shift water back up to the top reservoir at Fitzroy Falls, then generates power at perhaps $140/MWh during peak demand, perhaps in the early evening.

    But the premise for the expansion relies on a shift in that pattern, with increasingly excess renewable energy to be generated during the day from solar and wind, allowing water to be pumped up the hill for little cost on sunny days.

    "I don't see renewables stopping – they are very efficient – but we need to look at the reliability side of things and this is where Shoalhaven comes into its own," Mr Jarvis said.
    And it is not as if pumped hydro hasn't been around for a while.. The following youtube video is from a uk facility built in the 70's The Electric Mountain | Fully Charged - YouTube
    Last edited by RedEric; Yesterday at 01:37 PM. Reason: link to youtube video

  4. #3564

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedEric View Post
    Tell you what:

    I will put a solar water heater on my roof, and connect it to my water cylinder.

    You can put solar panels on the same area of your roof, and connect them to your cylinder. If you ever get your water hot, you can start a pump with your surplus electricity to send water to a ceiling tank, then at night you can use it to gravity a waterwheel to heat your water even more.

    Just how much will your system cost, and how much extra gain will you get from it?

    Just because something is possible, does not make it practical. I believe the term for such folly is white elephant, but feel free to pursue the utopian dream. Personally I shall stick with more practical measures.

  5. #3565
    RedEric's Avatar AF 250 Club Member Pro Membership
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Sailor View Post
    Tell you what:

    I will put a solar water heater on my roof, and connect it to my water cylinder.

    You can put solar panels on the same area of your roof, and connect them to your cylinder. If you ever get your water hot, you can start a pump with your surplus electricity to send water to a ceiling tank, then at night you can use it to gravity a waterwheel to heat your water even more.

    Just how much will your system cost, and how much extra gain will you get from it?

    Just because something is possible, does not make it practical. I believe the term for such folly is white elephant, but feel free to pursue the utopian dream. Personally I shall stick with more practical measures.
    Pft. Your example is an Apples (poorly thought out domestic power example) To Oranges (trying to denigrate Commerical generated power) comparison.

    And it is not me you have to persuade. It is the likes of Origin Energy and AGL.
    Last edited by RedEric; Yesterday at 02:06 PM.

  6. #3566

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedEric View Post
    Pft. Your example is an Apples (poorly thought out domestic power example) To Oranges (trying to denigrate Commerical generated power) comparison.........
    You mean that put the way I have presented it, the inefficiency of the concept is blindingly obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEric View Post
    .........And it is not me you have to persuade. It is the likes of Origin Energy and AGL.
    Thats where you are wrong. I have no shares in Origin, and no plans to become an Australian taxpayer. I suspect if you dig a little, Origin will be getting Govt funding, allocated to explore energy storage. Renewables have developed such strong public opinion that voters want to see something happening, regardless of viability. Origin will just be clipping the ticket at the cost of the Aussie taxpayer, my only concern is that such folly does not spread to NZ (although arguably it already has in the form of the Shane Jones Slush Fund).

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